The Art of Distinction

In this episode…

Nic Cary interviews Vince and they discuss the lessons learned during his career journey including:

• The importance of building strong, aligned teams that share a common vision for sustainable success.
• The value of identifying and addressing unmet needs to create impactful solutions in new markets.
• The necessity of balancing profit with purpose to drive meaningful, long-term growth.

Sponsor for this episode:

This episode is brought to you by Sky’s The Limit, one of the largest nonprofit programs for underrepresented young adult entrepreneurs in the US. Sky’s The Limit is a quick-growing digital platform that connects entrepreneurs with their peers, volunteer business mentors, training resources, and funding.

Our goal is to develop the social capital that founders need to chase their business dreams.

To learn more, please visit www.skysthelimit.org today.

Episode transcript

INTRO (00:04):

Welcome to The First Buck Podcast where we feature stories about entrepreneurs and the people who support them. Now let's get started with the show,

Nic Cary (00:22):

Hello and welcome to The First Buck Podcast, brought to you by skysthelimit.org. We feature stories about entrepreneurs and the people who support them. Today we're joined by Vince McSweeney, Chief Creative Officer at McCann Central, a global marketing network of specialized agencies with brand experience in all sectors and disciplines, and a long list of national and international client wins to his name.

Vince has also seen his work recognized at all major international award shows. Before moving into his current role, he was a Creative Director of McCann Melbourne and McCann Sydney, working on such brands as Holden, Mastercard, and L'Oreal.

Prior to that, he was also working in the hospitality industry as a qualified chef.

So we're going to hear some kitchen nightmares, as well as hopefully a lot more about how to build brands at both a small and an international level.

We're really, really excited to have you today, Vince.

We have a little tradition around here, though. We need to learn—how did you earn your first dollar, your first buck?

Vince McSweeney (01:20):
Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's the big question, isn't it? Um, I actually worked for a friend's dad, who was a tree lopper, and I'd feed the branches into the mulcher for 10 hours a day.

So, yeah, bit of a mind-numbingly boring first buck, that's for sure.

Nic Cary (01:40):

A little bit of danger in there too, I suspect.

Vince McSweeney (01:43):

Yes, it was. Yes.

Nic Cary (01:45):
Okay, so from your early days as a tree mulcher, talk to us about maybe some of the steps that you took afterward—learning a little bit about business grafting, dealing with clients. Where did you go from there?

Vince McSweeney (01:59):
Yeah, I mean, having, as I say, it was quite boring doing that sort of job. So I knew I didn't want to be in that industry, that's for sure.

And my father had been a cook when he was younger, so I was quite interested in the hospitality industry.

So I made the jump across there. But it took me a little bit to get across. I actually did a course as a bartender and got a job at Sheraton in Melbourne as a bartender and then worked in my spare time in the kitchens for them for free.

Then they offered me an apprenticeship. So, that's how I ended up as a chef.

And, yeah, it was really about kind of working my way through until I was in a position I was happy with.

Nic Cary (02:44):
Nice. So, a couple of questions. What was the weirdest drink order you ever got while working as a bartender in the hotel?

Vince McSweeney (02:53):
Oh, my goodness. You know, I anticipated you asking me, uh, cooking questions. I didn't expect a bar one.

Nic Cary (02:59):
Sorry.

Vince McSweeney (03:02):
Well, you know, I would say I wasn't a very good bartender. I was a much better chef than I was a bartender. And I think the one thing that used to throw me was when they'd ask for specific brand names.

I was fine if they asked for a whiskey or whatever, a generic kind. But as soon as they gave specific brand names, I had no clue where to look on the shelf.

So, you know, that's not weird, but it was definitely challenging.

Nic Cary (03:24):
Yep. Okay, so, a lot of the guests we interview also have a stint in hospitality, and I think that's not really too surprising.

Whether it's working in the restaurant industry or in a service industry of some kind, you get a lot of client interaction, you get a lot of demanding hours, and there's a lot of early responsibility.

Talk to us a little about—you said you started off volunteering, which I think was a really interesting way to sort of get your foot in the door.

But, you know, in that kitchen, what were some of the things you learned, and who were some of the people that were helping you along in those early days?

Vince McSweeney (04:00):
Yeah, I mean, look, I’m in advertising and marketing now, and I still kind of use the lessons that I was taught in the kitchens. I was really fortunate to have some very clever chefs around me, and, yeah, they did—they worked hard.

Definitely. So, you know, I learned the benefit of working hard. There was a situation once where I'd been put in charge as an apprentice, in charge of a competitive team, and I was a first-year apprentice at the time, looking after fourth-year apprentices.

We had a chef coach for practice. All a bit weird, I guess, really, but we used to train on different dishes and stuff for competitions. I remember him once taking me aside and saying, the most important thing you can do is actually make them think it's their idea.

If you have a thought or want to move in a certain direction, you can give people credit for stuff they haven't necessarily said or done, and you can get it to where you need to be by giving them credit. I probably shouldn't give away my secrets in advertising, but that's one I still use to this day.

If I'm trying to sell work, I'll sometimes congratulate a client on something they haven't said, and that seems to get through.

The other thing that comes to mind when I think about the kitchens is, I think there's a cliche of chefs being quite, well, I guess it's a Gordon Ramsay-style chef. And there was a point in time as an apprentice when I kind of went down that path a little bit and got quite aggressive.

One of my chefs—not a head chef, just a commis chef working with me—pulled me aside and said, every time you raise your voice, you're telling people you don't know what you're doing.

And that really struck me as well. I thought, yeah, wow, okay. Because I think it is those times when you raise your voice and stuff, it's when you're out of control, when you feel like you're not in control, and when you don't have a handle on the situation.

That's always been a good reminder for me, as a redheaded Aussie, not to get too fiery at times.

Nic Cary (06:25):
I like that one. Very cool. So, talk to us about how you made this transition from apprentice chef to iron chef, kitchen nightmares to more competitive cooking, into the advertising and marketing world.

Vince McSweeney (06:40):
Uh, yeah, look, looking back, I was just very, very lucky. I loved cooking. But as you mentioned before, hospitality hours are difficult. And to be honest, the money's not great in the industry, and it was just wearing me down a little bit. I had some opportunities to go to some nice restaurants, but I wasn't sure if I could commit 100%.

So, on a split shift one day when I was working, I went to the local university. I went to the art section in the information bit, and I pulled out all the pamphlets to do with art, because I love drawing and I love painting. And then I got home and went through each one.

I just kind of flipped them in front of me. The first one was jewelry making, and I thought, wow, okay. I quite like the thought of that. That could be an option. Next one was fine art. And, you know, as I say, I love painting, but there are lots of poor artists, so I didn’t really want to join the ranks of poor artists.

And the very next pamphlet I flipped was advertising. And I thought, well, that's art with a regular wage, I think. So I'll do that. And to be honest, that's all the research I did. From there, I decided to get into advertising.

So I did a short course in copywriting. Well, I'll step back a little bit. I went and spoke to the course coordinator for the advertising course, and he actually said to me that I was probably a bit too old to get into advertising.

I was in my mid-twenties, late twenties by then.

Nic Cary (08:16):
Too old in your mid twenties?

Vince McSweeney (08:18):
Yeah. And, uh, he said, you know, maybe you should just stay being a chef. So that was great motivation for me. I decided to absolutely get into advertising off the back of that, him telling me no. Um, and so I did a short course in copywriting to then get into that university course.

Um, and then during that university course, uh, in my third year, I'd heard there was a vacancy at McCann in Australia. Uh, and I went and had a word to them, and they hired me while I was still at uni, which was quite nice.

Nic Cary (08:49):
Oh, cool. Okay, so I love this a lot. You were sort of having this epiphany that you needed to be able to put 100% of yourself into something. You go through a bit of exploration. You head down to the university, go through some pamphlets, and escalate into one that has sort of product-market fit for you.

You create something that's super creative, which is, I think, really obvious for anyone that knows you, and then also has real commercial applicability in advertising. Then you invest in yourself. You take a course in copywriting. Someone tells you you shouldn't do it, you go to prove them wrong.

And then you get this offer to work at McCann. Very cool. So I think a lot of young people today also don't always know where to start or how to think about investing in themselves. What advice would you give to a young person about how to make those assessments?

I mean, at some point, people do need to take some small risks. How do they think about those types of risks, and how much should they put on the lines?

Vince McSweeney (09:49):
Yeah, I think that's a really good question. I think, you know, you mentioned it with my creativity, I knew. I knew my strengths. I think that I was aware, going through even high school, what the subjects were that I found easier, that I enjoyed—not that everything has to be enjoyable.

I don't mind putting in hard work. But I think that when it came time to switch careers, I really wanted to lean into the strengths that I knew I had. And that was very much in a kind of creative space. So as far as investing in myself, from that point of view, it was somewhat less of a risk.

Even though I was giving up trade qualifications to jump into a completely different field, I had self-confidence because I knew that a lot of it was stuff that I was very, very comfortable doing.

Nic Cary (10:44):

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So I want to hear maybe an early big win in your career. I think one of the things that's so helpful for anyone getting started is that confidence boost when something kind of big happens. Do you have any sort of memorable, I don't know, maybe like really clever client interactions or projects or initiatives or maybe a deal you closed? Talk a little bit about how you got that, you know, how you got it across the line and maybe some of the atmospherics around it.

Vince McSweeney (11:19):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was... I can tell you a funny one, actually. I was promoted quite quickly. I feel very fortunate. I'd only been at McCann a couple of years as a junior copywriter, and they made me creative director of the agency. Part of the reason that they did that, in all honesty, I found out later, is because they were kind of considering closing the doors.

It wasn't doing too well as a business, so they had nothing to lose, really, and gave me a bit of a shot.

Battlefield promotion.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And we had some opportunities quite quickly to win some bits of business, pitches. One of the ones that comes to mind for me is we were pitching for Mission Foods. Mission Foods do all the tortillas and wraps and things. A huge global brand.

And they were launching into Australia. They weren’t in Australia, and they bought a Mexican business that existed there. The client from the existing business in Australia kind of gave us a bit of advance warning for the pitch. The Mexican client from head office will be out, so just be aware, this will be a big deal. And we were quite a small agency at the time. We knew the difference that this would make to us to win this bit of business, so we pulled out all stops.

We really went for it. Obviously, with my background, I would cook Mexican food for them whenever they came in to see us. We just did everything we possibly could. And one of the things we decided to do, we felt that one of the things that we could leverage was our global presence. McCann is a very, very strong international agency, and we always get along quite well with agencies around the world. So we thought that would give us a bit of an edge versus other agencies. We got in touch with McCann Mexico and asked if they could send a creative director out to help present on the day with the pitch.

And, you know, we weren’t in a good financial position at the time. So we said, look, if you don’t mind, we can’t fly business class. We can’t fly you out business class. It’ll be economy. He was fine, always wanted to come to Oz, as a lot of people do.

So, you know, he generously said he’d come out. My recollection of it is he was almost walking in the front door with his suitcase, as we got a call from the client 36 hours later. Exactly. Exactly. And numerous flights to get to Ozdev. And it got postponed by a week.

And we said, well, can you stick around for a week? Happy to put you up for a week if you can. He said, I can’t. I’ve got to get back for a L'Oreal meeting. I said, oh, would you mind? Could we fly you back again in a week?

You know? And again, he was such a lovely guy. He said, you know what? I’ll do it. I’ll do it. So, economy, all the way back again. Then we got him back again. Anyway, on the day we did up the room, he brought all this authentic kind of bunting out.

It was amazing. We’d done up the room perfectly. I’d cooked their product, everything was great. But as we were going through the presentation, he didn’t really seem to connect with the Mexican client. And we couldn’t figure out why because we thought this should make a big statement about how we’re connected.

And he could see that he wasn’t connecting. So at some point he said, well, because I’m from blah blah village in this area. And he said directly to the client, and where are you from? And he said, Lebanon.

Oh, no. So he wasn’t Mexican born and bred. He was a Lebanese guy working in the Mexican head office. But, you know. So we kind of got that one a little bit wrong. But I think that we ended up winning the pitch, and it transformed the business for us, and it did a great job.

I think that even though that didn’t come off, the lessons for us were to really play every card that we can. You know, if we’re going to be in, and we still do it to this day, if we’re going to try and win something, we go at it 100%.

And we do absolutely everything we possibly can. And I think that, as I say, even though that element didn’t come off, there was plenty of demonstration of our commitment. That meant that we got the account, which was excellent for us, and really kind of set us up on a path to then, you know, a few years after I left, but not that much longer, McCann Melbourne did Dumb Ways to Die, the incredible campaign that went around the globe.

So in some small way, I can lay claim to that as far as building the platform for them.

Nic Cary (16:18):

Very cool. Thank you for sharing that story. I think, uh, everyone’s got, hopefully, a few wins they can look back to, plant seeds that sort of create an environment for more success. And then also, even in those moments, you can get things a little bit wrong, and I think that’s okay.

Um, there’s an old quote I like which was, “It’s the things you know that just aren’t so that hurt you the most,” which is really just about recognizing that. Don’t make complete assumptions about things unless you’re extremely sure you’ve double-checked, uh, because if you get those things wrong, they can really get you on the wrong side of something.

So, at skysthelimit.org, we have, uh, tens of thousands of young entrepreneurs, and a lot of them are really obsessed with thinking about their brands, whether they’re building a clothing line or starting a small food truck, um, or having more ambitious plans. And it’s one of the first things they really want to spend a lot of time on.

What advice do you have with your clients if they’re sort of at the early stages of trying to find product-market fit, and they’re already sort of leaping ahead to designing things and logos and the whole branding experience? From your perspective—and I know this is a big question—how does it all fit together, and how can young and early-stage entrepreneurs, especially in small businesses, focus and prioritize when they think about the framing of what branding and marketing for their product or service really is?

Vince McSweeney (17:43):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a really, really good question. I, um, heard a definition of a brand years ago, so simple, and I love it, and I still use it: that brand equals product plus personality. And, um, you know, I think the thing that we can definitely see across all channels is the need for authenticity in the way that we, um, appear as a brand.

And I think that in order to be authentic, we need to look at that personality aspect within the brand equation. I think that, you know, really understanding who you are, what you have to offer, and what makes you distinctive.

Um, and then equally, what’s that distinctiveness and what’s that quality when it comes to the product as well gives you a strong brand. I heard another, um, idea where a lot of the way that people interact and assess brands is no different from how they assess humans in general.

Obviously, we’re social creatures at the end of the day, and brands are treated as part of that. And it comes down to, um, the way that we interact: warmth and competency. And I think those two things are really interesting as well. What’s the warmth that we demonstrate through the things that we’re doing, and then what’s the competency?

And there’s a nice marriage for me between product and personality as per brand, and warmth and competency when it comes to thinking about who we are. So, you know, really with clients, it’s about understanding who they are properly before we get into the execution of things, making sure that they’re authentic, and then finding those distinctive assets within it.

And from my point of view, everyone is their own brand at the end of the day. You know, for me, obviously, two very obvious distinctive things are, ah, you know, being, uh, an Aussie in the UK is something that I'm fully aware of as part of my brand, um, and my background as a chef.

So, you know, I still, when I can, say “g'day” to people, even though, you know, I wouldn't naturally say “g'day” to people, having been over here for quite a while, but I’m aware that it's part of my brand as well, and I'm just reminding...

Nic Cary (20:05):

It stands out, right?

Vince McSweeney (20:06):
Yeah, yeah, those distinctive assets. So I think, yeah, drilling down, finding what's authentic to you from a personality point of view, definitely goes a long way to building that brand.

Nic Cary (20:21):
I love that. Thank you for sharing that, um, product and personality as the definition of a brand. And, uh, you speak a lot about how important, um, authenticity is, and I think we help, uh, early-stage entrepreneurs go through this exercise of answering, you know, the question, why do you want to do this?

And not just in one question, but why?

Why?

Why? Get really down to the root of it so that you can, you know, examine that authenticity and lean into it. Because if you have a very strong reason for doing something and leaving impact in the world, that becomes a reservoir of motivation. When all the things that are difficult through the journey of building a company happen, um, you can tap into that reservoir.

And, uh, you spoke about, um, brands very similarly to how we build relationships with humans, uh, which I thought was really, uh, insightful. And, uh, I like how you describe it as that dynamic between warmth, uh, and competency, which is that a brand should make you feel generally positive and it needs to do what it says on the tin, which is, is it reliable? Is it durable? Does it do what it's supposed to do? Is it competent? Um, I think that, ah, when you think about, uh, the brands that you want to associate yourself with or purchase or that you rely on in your house, those are all variables and aspects of those things that you would want to have.

So I think for businesses to be thinking about those things, um, when they're getting started, um, really at the root of it, that's how you develop the strongest bond between you and your clients. So let's dig in a little bit more. I wanted to ask you, uh, you've gotten to hire a lot of people across your career, uh, especially in the marketing and advertising space, uh, but also in management and leadership roles.

Um, what are some of the things you've learned in that and how should young people be thinking or preparing today? Um, it seems like a lot of people want to help build maybe a social media presence. What tips can you sort of give them? Um, and how can they avoid wasting time as opposed to doing something that sort of feels like they have to do it?

Vince McSweeney (22:26):
Yeah, I mean, I think obviously that side and building your profile, um, it does come with a lot of benefits. I think from my point of view, when I've been hiring people in the past, um, and to this day, I mean, I can relate it back to when I was out there kind of showing my folio around while I was still at uni, um, and actually just before I went, the day before I went to see McCann, I'd gone to another agency and the, um, creative director flicked through my book, looked at all the stuff I'd done, and lots of nods.

I was feeling quite positive about it, the way he was looking at the work. And then he said, yeah, it's all really great stuff, but you're not showing me anything I don't already have nine other people on the floor doing exactly the same thing, which was, uh, a bit of a slap.

Um, and, uh, I felt quite down about it at first, but when I thought about it again, it comes back to that distinctiveness. Um, so I knew I had that McCann meeting the next day. So I kind of looked at the way I'd put my folio together. I adjusted it, I made it feel a little bit fresher and a little bit more unexpected.

And, uh, then had the meeting the next day and I was told it was the best folio he'd seen in the last twelve months. So it's funny how it kind of flipped around. I think the outtake, uh, that's always stuck with me when I'm, when I'm talking to people.

I think that, um, you know, give me something I don't have, show me something that I don't, you know, already have people doing, you know, alert me to something I was unaware of. Um, tell me something I don't know, you know, all of those things, ah, are super crucial to me.

I think that if people can demonstrate that, that's who I want to be surrounded by, people that can still teach me, regardless of what level they're at, can still show me things that I was unaware of.

Nic Cary (24:21):
Cool. Yeah, I like that. Um, it's so funny; we deal with a lot of people who have a hard time accepting criticism now. Um, you know, whatever feels good to have someone look at some of your work and go, "Wow, looks distinctly average." And you're like, "Oh, God, I've been working really hard, and I thought this is what you wanted to see."

Um, but I think a lot of people who get through rejections ultimately have to develop a bit of thick skin in the world. Um, and getting feedback isn't a personal attack all the time. It can be a learning opportunity. It can be a way to broaden your understanding of how you can be more distinctive and, hopefully, give you a bit of confidence to experiment and take some personal risks with how you present yourself.

Using your accent, leaning into your background, your personal passions, merging those things—building a recipe for a whole new industry, as a chef in the creative world, or wherever it is—those are such important things to be thinking about. So, yeah, thanks for sharing that. Okay.

I've got a couple of extra questions for you. Um, in the advertising and media space, I think a lot of early-stage businesses go, "God, if I just had a million-dollar advertising budget, I'd solve my problem." What should they really be doing? And what should businesses really be thinking about before they start throwing money at advertising?

They obviously get persuaded by that. They see sponsorship names on big sports teams and think, "It must be so easy to sell a whole bunch of things if I just had, you know, the title sponsorship on the F1 team or whatever it is." But I don't think that's absolutely the case.

How should businesses think about advertising spend or strategy before they go down and place investments in those things? Because it seems like an obvious thing to do, but it's also a really, really quick way to spend all your money.

Vince McSweeney (26:23):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that, you know, even though we tend to think of it as the most important part of the marketing mix, there are a lot of other levers to pull as well. And I think that, um, there have been plenty of instances where we've done some excellent marketing and advertising, but if the distribution's not there or if the pricing model's not right, there are so many other factors that come into play that can really affect things. I think making sure you've got all that lined up before diving into marketing is super crucial.

And I think then, you know, when you do get to that point of deciding how you're going to spend, um, it is easy to get caught up in the glamorous side of things, like sponsorships or whatever.

I think it's far more important to play both a long and a short game. So, you know, you need sales the next day to keep the tills clicking over. We need to make sure we're generating work that can drive those sales.

But at the same time, not just focusing on those immediate sales uplifts—it's also about investing in the brand as well. It’s a bit of a balancing act, to be honest, making sure you've got the money to invest, but also ensuring you invest in that brand to make it stronger. From a price elasticity point of view, you can kind of lean into that a little bit.

But also, you can protect what you're doing because people are familiar with and love your brand, going back to that warmth and competency.

Nic Cary (28:08):
Yep, that makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. All right, um, one last question for you today. I think for a lot of business owners, whether it's taking those steps to test and then maybe scale different ideas or invest in different aspects of their business—whether it's their team, product, marketing, or advertising—a lot of that can feel quite intimidating or scary.

Um, what tips would you give our listeners for how to manage some of the stress and how to think through making those decisions when it comes to running a business and growing a business?

Vince McSweeney (28:44):
Yeah, that's a good question as well. I mean, I mentioned before, I still kind of refer back to the kitchens for a lot of my analogies and lessons. And definitely, a lot of what I learned about how to deal with pressure and work as part of a team comes from that kitchen environment.

One of the things for me, back when it used to get really busy, there's a point—and I guess, as you say, if a lot of people listening have been in hospitality, they'll know—there's a point when the dockets start coming in that it's almost overwhelming. You know, it gets to a point where you don't know whether to laugh or cry.

You just honestly don't think you're going to be able to handle all the tables that are ordering. And, in those moments, we were always told to just do the next three dockets because there's a point at which you can become immobilized, right? You don’t do anything, or you just collapse—and this would happen night after night.

Every service, really. There's a point at which you don't know whether to laugh or cry. It's at that point that you just focus on the next three dockets. Don't worry about the bigger picture. Just focus on those next three and do those next three. And once you've done that, do the next three and the next three.

And what you find is, if you can just chunk it down into smaller tasks—if you can just look at the things that are immediately actionable—don’t worry about the other stuff; that'll come. And, invariably, before you know it, you've cleared the backlog, and you're fine.

So my bit of advice for dealing with stress is: just do the next three dockets.

Nic Cary (30:28):
TI like that. Persistent advancement. All right, well, Vince, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I loved hearing about your start as a tree surgeon, moving into the kitchen, working in a boiler room pressure cooker, and learning some of the important skills that then went on to inform an elaborate and very successful career in advertising media.

And I think you had some really, really thoughtful points, especially around branding and how to think about who you are, what you want to imprint into your business, and making sure that you're doing that with a lot of authenticity, warmth, and competency. Those will be some things I remember from our conversation.

So thanks again so much. We really appreciate everything that you brought to our podcast today. And just as a reminder to everyone... At skysthelimit.org, we connect underrepresented entrepreneurs with volunteer business professionals for free, one-on-one mentoring.

We also provide business guides to all of our members and monthly funding opportunities. You can sign up for free today, and if you like what you heard, please subscribe and share this podcast.

OUTRO (31:37):

Thanks for listening to The First Buck Podcast. Don't forget to join the community of underrepresented entrepreneurs and their supporters by signing up at skysthelimit.org. Click subscribe and we'll see you next time.