Facing and Breaking the Fear of Failure

In this episode…

Nic Cary interviews Gary and they discuss the lessons learned during his career journey including:

• The importance of building meaningful networks and connections to unlock opportunities.
• The value of embracing failure as a necessary part of learning and growth.
• The necessity of persistence and resilience in navigating challenges and driving impact.

Sponsor for this episode:

This episode is brought to you by Sky’s The Limit, one of the largest nonprofit programs for underrepresented young adult entrepreneurs in the US. Sky’s The Limit is a quick-growing digital platform that connects entrepreneurs with their peers, volunteer business mentors, training resources, and funding.

Our goal is to develop the social capital that founders need to chase their business dreams.

To learn more, please visit www.skysthelimit.org today.

Episode transcript

INTRO (00:04):

Welcome to The First Buck Podcast where we feature stories about entrepreneurs and the people who support them. Now let's get started with the show,

Nic Cary (00:22):

Hello and welcome to The First Buck Podcast, brought to you by skysthelimit.org. We feature stories about entrepreneurs and the people who support them. Today, we're joined by Gary Izunwa, co-founder and CEO of Tangent, an employee referral program that makes referrals accessible to everyone, not just the privileged few from the best networks or backgrounds.

(00:44):
Prior to Tangent, Gary worked at the British Council, leading programs for Generation UK, a multi-million-pound campaign committed to social mobility by providing UK students from low-income backgrounds with funded work opportunities in China. While at the British Council, Gary launched his social mobility podcast, Climbing from the Rungs, which was featured in the media and earned him an award from McKinsey & Company.

Before the British Council, he started his career as one of nine associates in LinkedIn's Business Leadership Program, leaving as one of the highest-performing account executives within the EMEA region. Gary is a distinguished member of the Forbes 30 Under 30 class of 2024.

Gary, we're really excited to have you on our podcast!

I know you're a pro.

We're excited to dig in your background. We have a little tradition here, so we always ask our guests: How did they earn their first buck, pound, or euro? Tell us about how you learned about money.

Gary Izunwa (01:37):
Sure. That's a very fitting question for this podcast.

So I distinctly remember this. I was in Year Seven, about eleven years old at this time. And it's winter, it's cold, cold. It gets very cold here in the UK in winter. And I remember when and how my mom gave me this, like, I don't even know how to describe it, like this liquid jelly-like heat pad thing.

And I don't—I don't understand the science about it, but in this, like, liquid, kind of jellified heat pad, there's like this little metal clicker. Then once you click on it, the heat pad starts to solidify and warm up. So she gave me this thing to go to school, and she was like, when you get really cold, use it. It's a little jelly. If you Google, like, heat pad clicker, you'll see what I'm talking about.

And so I took this to school one day, and during, like, our lunch break or one of our school breaks, it was particularly cold. And I remember, like, getting it out and clicking it on, and, you know, as my mom told me, it solidified and got really warm. And it's great, very good, like, use, right? But I remember distinctly the reaction from all my friends. They were, like, just bewildered. It's like, what is this thing? Like, this magic. That magic, literally—modern-day witchcraft or wizardry. And it went from, like, the liquid thing to the solid thing. And it was warm, and everyone was asking, like, can I have one? Where do I get it? And I didn't actually know, but I remember distinctly the shock and, like, the amazement on all my friends' faces.

(02:50):
So when I went home, I asked my mom, like, where did you get this thing? Like, how much does it cost? Like, everyone from school wants one. And she told me it costs one pound for two of them. You can get two for one pound in Wilkinson, which is like a big retail chain store in the UK now called Wilko.

And so. And that's what she told me. And it was just on my mind, like, remembering how everyone reacted to it and how amazed they were. And I just thought, I want to go and try and see if I can sell some of these. There's clearly, like, a need or a want here for this.

I took my—I mean, I will get into it, but I come from a low-income kind of background—so I went to Wilkinson's and spent, like, three to four pounds on buying these heat pads. Like, for me, that was a lot of money at age eleven, like, a lot of money. This was a big gamble to spend that on something that I don't even know if people will buy. And I bought, I think, four packs of them. So I had eight heat pads, and I went to school to sell them, just to test out and see if there was real demand.

And I kid you not, Nic, within seconds, all gone. All gone. And, like, so I was—I went from being four pounds down to eight pounds up in, like, five minutes like this. I've got something real, onto a winner here. And so I went back to Wilkinson's that day after school, and I bought them out of all the heat pads they had, which wasn't that many, to be honest.

(03:52):
We had, like, 20 or 30. And I just started selling them over and over again, every day, selling them in school. And I think until actually—until they actually ran out, until Wilkinson's actually ran out of heat pads. I think that winter, I made about 150 pounds, which, again, for me, I felt rich.

Now, this was like, I've made it in life. I'm eleven years old, and I've got 150 pounds in my pocket.

But that was the first time I'd ever made money. It was real, and I think that's where I really got into the idea of, like, selling something that not only provides value to people but really, like, gets them excited. Like, you're really solving a problem in a way that makes people, yeah, excited and enthused.

And that's kind of led probably to many of the things I've done in my career. But yeah, selling heat pads as an eleven-year-old in school—that was my first kind of foray.

Nic Cary (04:36):

Gary, I love that story. We've had a lot of interviews and everything from people doing paper routes, stands. But I think at seven years old, you might be the youngest first-buck entrepreneur we've had on the podcast.

Gary Izunwa (04:49):

So eleven, eleven, eleven.

Nic Cary (04:51):
Yeah, it took a few years to see the real opportunity, but by eleven years old, you pulled out all of the heat packs, literally. It's so good, though, because you identify some really important dynamics that are applicable to all businesses, which is when there's demand for something, there's a price for it, and you have to then get inventory, manage that inventory, and do distribution and all those things.

And I think you keyed into something I want to hear a little bit more about, which is selling something useful, but then solving a problem that really creates excitement for the marketplace. So from being an early entrepreneur on the playground, selling things that help people in the cold, what were some of the other things you did in your early career, heading into your early twenties?

Gary Izunwa (05:37):
Sure. And just to wrap that up, the heat pads were a pound for two, and I would sell them for a pound each. I was, like, doubling my money.

Nic Cary (05:43):
You doubled your money.

Gary Izunwa (05:44):
I know, yeah. I literally felt rich. That's how I was, like, this is great, I want something. I was so upset when they ran out.

Nic Cary (05:48):
It's easy, and I'm really good at it.

Gary Izunwa (05:50):
Right, right.

But to talk a bit about my professional career, I'll just do a whistle-stop tour of my background, if that's okay. So, as I mentioned, I grew up low-income, single-parent family, free school meals—all the stuff that I think gives life a lot of purpose and kind of character, if you like.

Since then, I've gone through an upwardly mobile journey. So, I did well in school, got all A's in my A-levels, got into my first Christian university on a scholarship, did a gap year after uni, traveled the world, and then started my career at LinkedIn on their graduate program, which was great. I rotated around different business units, from recruiting to customer operations, and then rolled off into the sales team. So, I was a business development representative—you know, the entry-level sales role where you're helping your company find potential new clients.

I did that for about a year and a half, and then went into full-cycle sales, where I was an account executive, as you mentioned, huh, at LinkedIn. And, yeah, it was really good. Nic, it was really good. I became the first sales rep in LinkedIn history to ever hit a quarterly target only with multi-year contracts—only selling 24 to 36-month contracts, not the standard twelve. I was doing really well to the point that I was earning six figures by the time I was 24 or 25, which, for me, growing up on free school meals, low-income, as one of five kids, was just crazy.

(07:03):
I have made it. I'm working at LinkedIn at this time. We got free food, free gym, and we had an on-site masseuse. Like, life—I just, like, you know, it was just too good to be true, almost. I didn't know how it kind of happened. It just did.

But really interesting. So, that's kind of the beginning of my professional career. A really interesting experience, though, is I'm from London, and I was working at LinkedIn, based in Dublin. And every eight or so weeks, I would come back home to see my family and, you know, see my friends from school and so forth.

And there was this super interesting experience whereby, you know, I'm living in Dublin at this point, and I live in a great apartment. I get to go on amazing holidays, stay in the best hotels, and live this great life. When I come home, you know, my family's life hasn't changed, or the people I went to school with—their lives hadn't changed.

It was this realization of, you know, I've been socially mobile, but not enough to bring the people that I care about up with me. Because, yeah, good, I'm adding six figures, but that's not enough to transform my entire family's life, right? And so, after doing that journey every eight or so weeks from London to Dublin and back for three and a half years, as I was at LinkedIn, it just motivated me to want to have more of an impactful career.

(08:00):
So, at that point, I decided to quit my six-figure job. I took an 80% salary reduction, which was very scary when you grow up poor. And I moved to the British Council to lead social mobility programs, as you mentioned—really impactful work, and I enjoyed that.

But I want to have big, scalable, kind of outsized impact on the topic of social mobility. And I think the only way you can do that is to start your own tech company. And that's what kind of led me to where I am in Tangent today. But that's kind of like a whistle-stop tour, if you like, of my professional background.

Nic Cary (08:29):
I knew parts of that.

So, from being an early entrepreneur on the school playground to pursuing a really amazing academic career, then getting into LinkedIn, taking time for yourself in between those things, but then doing something a lot of entrepreneurs and people do, which is leave their homes and sometimes go far away to chase opportunities.

And then working on their kind of personal relationship with that, which is difficult—you have to leave your safety network, you sometimes leave your friends and family, and go far away to develop skills and learn about business opportunities. And then you chose to come back to the UK and get back to your roots with work at the British Council. So, that was also very impactful.

But then you still have this sort of itch to do even more. And let's talk about Tangent. Talk to us about what inspired you to start that. What is your why? And why is social mobility such an important thing for you to spend your life's work on?

Gary Izunwa (09:31):
Yeah, for sure. Brilliant, brilliant question, and thanks for asking. So, as you can probably imagine from my story, growing up the way I did and kind of earning money at quite an early age, I know social mobility, careers, and so forth have just been inherently a big passion of mine.

And as I went from LinkedIn or my background, I did—and went to the British Council—I really believed I had a unique set of insights and understandings that positioned me as one of the only people who could make a really significant impact on this topic globally.

And I almost felt like I had a duty to take the risk to start it, right? Even though it was scary—even just going from LinkedIn to the British Council, taking that size of a pay cut was horrifying, to be honest. Would I ever get to that level of income again? But I was just so relentless in my pursuit of making change that I had to do it.

And so, kind of going back to Tangent and the inspiration behind that—prior to starting at LinkedIn, how I actually got into LinkedIn was I just really hustled and grinded. I went onto the platform and started messaging people randomly because I really wanted to work at LinkedIn.

Nic Cary (10:32):
I was wondering how that happened, but,

Gary Izunwa (10:35):
Yeah, exactly.

So, I did a summer internship in banking at the end of my second year of uni because a lot of people were saying, you can get into banking and earn lots of money. And I did that summer. But after finishing it, I realized two things: that I don’t want to work in banking at all, and I want to work for a mission-driven company. LinkedIn, with their mission or vision of creating economic opportunity for the global workforce, really stood out to me based on my experiences and values, and I wanted to work for them.

So I was just relentless, heads down on getting there. It was really hacky and took a year of relationship building, but eventually, I got in. But when I got to LinkedIn, I learned that pretty much everyone who got into the company was referred through employee referrals. That's how they got hired, right?

And, you know, prior to joining LinkedIn, I thought the only way to get a job was the crazy thing I did—messaging people randomly on LinkedIn—or by applying for a job on a job board. Right? I didn’t know. What else can you do?

Nic Cary (11:28):
God, I think that's such a huge misconception. Everyone thinks that they need to apply for jobs, go to job boards, and shotgun out hundreds and hundreds of resumes. Like, most people that work, I would say, in larger organizations really rely on referrals.

Gary Izunwa (11:42):
Exactly.

Nic Cary (11:44):
That's a misconception of real truth bomb.

Gary Izunwa (11:46):
Yeah. And 70% of people get jobs at companies where they have at least a connection, right? At this point, building Tangent, we've spoken to hundreds of job seekers from low-income backgrounds. They are all only applying on job boards. They have no idea what an employee referral is until we tell them.

And they continue to apply on job boards, even though they know they're not successful, because they have no other alternative. That is reality today, right? And so, just reflecting on my time at LinkedIn, where literally, like, you have to get referred to get a job there.

And we've actually spoken to another tech company—I won't say the name, but it's huge. Hundreds of thousands of employees. Sixty-five percent of their global recruitment comes from referrals. Two-thirds of every 100 hires they make—only two will come from a job board. So, 2% of their global hires come from job applications online, which is where the majority of people from backgrounds like mine think they can even get a job. This is the only way they believe they can get a job.

So, just taking all these insights and experiences, I thought there had to be a better way to democratize—bit of a buzzword—but, you know, make this hiring channel a lot more accessible.

(12:44):
And that's kind of how we came up with Tangent, really. I'd seen some of the behaviors I noticed at LinkedIn, where people were quite open to referring others if they had a good story or a good why.

And that was the premise behind the platform. We connect job seekers who have the talent and drive but lack the network—people who don’t know anyone in these tech companies. We connect them to employees within the tech companies who are willing to commit some of their time each month to mentor, support, and refer talent into their companies.

And, yeah, that's pretty much it. And today, we've gotten great talent jobs at unicorn tech companies like Multiverse, GoCardless, Aircall, Square, and Reachdesk. Like, it's really starting to work, and we're changing lives.

Nic Cary (13:23):

Man.

Cool. I am loving this. Thank you for telling us more about these things you witnessed in these really big tech companies and then taking some of those lessons and extrapolating something that's not being solved for. And I think you talk a little bit about something that's so critical for young people to think about, which is— and you hear about it as you get older, and you're not always ready to hear these things—but you need to work on your network.

And it’s, how do you know? What advice do you give, though, to young people that are intimidated about sort of maybe growing a network of advocates or supporters? I like to think about it as trying to find potential mentors or advisors, but people have different views on this.

What advice do you give young people? Where should they go to start, and how do they practice getting better at talking about their own perspectives and their personal life or growing in business?

Gary Izunwa (14:18):

It's a great question. A few things from my own experience and also what we've learned through building Tangent: I think definitely, particularly if you come from a background like mine, you have to develop proactivity. You have to be someone who's ready. I know that's—I hate giving throwaway advice—but you have to be someone who's a go-getter.

And I think, naturally, if you come from a less privileged background, you have that in you as a consequence of where you come from. But combining that now with some of the other things I mentioned, one thing I've learned is that people are really, really happy to help.

And actually, I think there's a lot more altruism out there than we expect or anticipate. So I'd really encourage people just to reach out to others. As I mentioned, I got my job at LinkedIn just by messaging people on the platform—people I didn't know or was loosely connected to. I gave them a clear why. As I mentioned, I really wanted to work at LinkedIn for a particular reason.

And I made it easy for them. If they tried to connect me with someone, I would write the message they could easily forward to that person, etc. But what I've learned in that time, and what I've learned since starting Tangent, is that we don’t pay the mentors to refer and support people. They do it because they genuinely want to help.

(15:22):
People are really, really happy to give back. It's actually something I think people are looking for, even without knowing they’re looking for it. When they have an opportunity to give back in a meaningful way that’s also quite easy, they’ll do it.

So, oftentimes, people are nervous or scared to reach out to people they don't know, asking for something. But do it. People are almost waiting for it when you do. Now again, people are happy to support and give back, but it's not necessarily their top priority. The name of the game here is follow-up.

Oftentimes, people will send one message, and if they don't get a reply, they'll think, "Oh, they didn’t reply because I’m stupid," or catastrophize it: "My message was written badly," or "I’m not good enough." Not that at all.

Sometimes people are just busy and have other things to do. They actually appreciate a follow-up because you're raising yourself up on their priority list. And they want to get back to you. Following up also highlights how much you want to speak with someone.

(16:16):
I mean, today—even yourself, Nic—I get reached out to by a lot of people, but it’s usually only once. And I think, How much did you really want to speak to me? But if you reach out two or three times, it's like, Okay, now I really need to get back to you because it's clear you really want to connect.

It makes me feel like I can add more value to the conversation by virtue of your persistence. So, the name of the game is: don't overthink it. Reach out to people. Be proactive. People are generally happy to help, but also follow up.

Don't stop at one message. I'd say send at least three. If they don't get back to you after that, then maybe pause. But these are some of the things people aren't often told—people want to help, but they’re busy, and you need to remind them.

That little bit of advice has really helped me, and it's what got me to where I am today—if that’s anywhere in particular. But, yeah

Nic Cary (17:07):

A few things from your time starting off at LinkedIn to building Tangent now—you've helped a lot of people get noticed and apply for jobs. What are some things people who are looking for their first jobs can do? How can they prepare for an interview?

What advice would you give them to sort of practice going through what may be their first, more formal process?

Gary Izunwa (17:34):

Yeah, totally. And this is probably a small plug to Tangent, but then just in general as well, is that you always, and every time, try—and it's hard—but try and speak to people that are in that company or for the interview that you're coming, that you're interviewing with and ideally are in the role that you're entering or an adjacent role.

Like, the reason why people are being successful in Tangent is because they're speaking to people that are doing the job, oftentimes at the company in which they want to work. And there's no one better to give you advice on how to interview for that role than someone who's in that company doing that job already, right?

It just kind of makes sense. And I think that's why, in general, referrals—employee referrals—are so successful, because you're having someone who's generally referring you. Not only does your kind of application get prioritized, but, you know, there's a referral bonus. Oftentimes, when your referral gets hired, they are incentivized to support you through that journey. So if you get to an interview, second round, third round, final round, they are there to share with you that internal culture deck or, you know, that profile of that hiring manager, or give you the information on the ins and outs of the products, right?

You can't get that from a Google search or looking at a website as much as you can from speaking to someone in that company. So we do that now at Tangent. We can connect with those people for entry-level sales roles. That’s the one role we start with now. We're going to expand quickly as we grow.

(18:47):
But in general, LinkedIn is your friend. You go onto LinkedIn and message people that are in that role, or at least in that company, and say, "Look, I'm really excited about this opportunity. I have to interview, a bit nervous." You know, I think sharing a bit of vulnerability is also good. That ties into the emotional, the human connection part of all of us. "I'm quite nervous. It's the first time I've had an interview like this before. I would love to spend 15 minutes of your time just getting some tips or running through a practice interview."

Share your why, share what it means to you. Be a bit vulnerable and make it easy for the other person. But every time, I say, speak to people that are in the company, ideally doing the role that you want. You can only do so much by yourself. And job searching is such a lonely job already. It's really hard. You're applying by yourself. You're writing your CV and cover letters by yourself.

At least let the interview part be a little bit more collaborative by working with people that are in those companies. Wherever you can do that to build those human connections, whether it's through us or through any other means, I would highly advocate you do that.

Nic Cary (19:42):
Yeah, that's great advice. And I've heard it said many times that searching for a job is almost a full-time job, and so you want to sort of build almost a team of support for you to the extent you can, even though a lot of it will fall on your shoulders.

But you've made some great points, which is to have some confidence to ask for help, be courteous, and follow up. Don't be discouraged if you don't get a response the first time. A lot of the people you may be reaching out to could be busy.

And the other thing that I thought was really good is, to the extent that you can, interview the person doing the job already. And if you're not able to get through exactly there, another trick is to find people that have previously done that role and may have moved on in their careers.

And you can go learn a lot from them as well.

Gary Izunwa (20:25):
Exactly.

Nic Cary (20:26):
You said something smart, which was just to be authentic and share a bit of vulnerability. Of course, it's intimidating to ask people for advice.

And you can say I'm a little nervous about what this might look like, but I'd love to hear what this job was on a day-to-day basis. And what did you have to do to be successful in it so that I can be best prepared for an interview?

Gary Izunwa (20:44):
Yeah, I think vulnerability is an absolute—sorry, sorry. I just think vulnerability is an absolute superpower. And it just... the way in which you can establish connection and trust is like none other I've seen. You just got to be, you know, a bit selective with it, and smart with it, but do it, you know.

It's really helped me not only get jobs but also fundraise and hire great talent. You know, it's something that I think people shy away from because—yeah, it's hard exposing yourself, right? Exposing the less glamorous parts of your life or feeling like you're in need of something. But we're all, before we're Nic from X or Gary from Y, humans.

And so it's an important part, I think, to leverage.

Nic Cary (21:22):

Yeah.

And I think you said something else that was really good, which is people do want to help—it makes them feel better too. And at Sky's the Limit, we talk about this a lot, but it's really kind of what you're building Tangent on, which is sort of just—there's a wealth of social capital in the world. It's not just money in the sense of dollar bills and pound notes.

It's all this knowledge, these skills, and these experiences that people have that can be very useful when that knowledge is transferred in a context-specific way. And so, building up your social capital, building up your network, finding that bench of supporters for you early on in your career, and then augmenting that across your career is hugely important.

So, I wanted to ask you a question, which was: Gary, when you look back at your own sort of story arc so far, who are a couple of the people that have been really instrumental in supporting you, as either a mentor, advisor, or coach, or however you think about that sort of support network?

Gary Izunwa (22:20):
Yeah, it's a good question. It's interesting, and I’ve thought about this. I don't think I've ever really had a particular mentor myself—like, one person I've worked with really closely for years. I find that the way I learn the most is vicariously. So I'm very observant, like, watching things and so forth. But also, I'm extremely curious and have a really strong learning mindset. So I'm always asking questions. A lot of the things I've said here today, I also do myself.

I'm always reaching out to people. I'm always trying to get a little bit of time from them and being very specific with my asks—just to ask them particular questions that I can learn from. And so, like, I don't... I've had, like, one or two particular, like, significant people in my life, you know—outside of my mom. But outside of that, it's probably been, like, a collection of so many different people that I just learn from.

I reach out to them and ask for their support or anything.

So, yeah, it's interesting for me because I think a lot of people might have an answer to that. I don't. You know, I think just the way I learn is not through, like, this deep one relationship. I almost feel like if I had one mentor or one or two advisors I spent a lot of time with, I'd almost be missing out on learning from others—by kind of going too deep into a relationship and not broad enough with others.

But, yeah, for me, it's been... I don't really... yeah, it's an interesting one for me because I've learned from so many people.

Nic Cary (23:35):
Well, I think that's very... I think the way you talk about it, though, is really helpful, which is that, you know, not everyone has those types of relationships, and it's okay if you don't.

But being curious and making good asks and having questions for people so that you can learn from them is really what it's all about anyway.

So, let's take a little bit of a different direction. One question I had for you: you're building a team now yourself. When you think about who to surround yourself with to make Tangent successful, what kind of people are you looking for?

How do you think about cultivating and building a culture within Tangent that is mission-aligned with your goal?

How do you think about that?

Gary Izunwa (24:14):
Yeah, sure. And it's a great question and something that I'm still on the journey, you know, figuring out as an early-stage founder. But a few things that come to mind that we look for in anyone that joins the team—you kind of touched on it—is definitely being mission-aligned.

And, you know, not just trying... A lot of people want to join a company that's raised a little bit of funding from really core investors because they just think it could be the next big thing or whatever, right?

But people that really get to the crux of why we exist and what we're trying to solve, and kind of interrogating people around that—that's extremely important for us. Because as you know, startups are hard—you all know that—and they require a lot from you.

And the people that I believe will ride through the rough times are the ones that really see the bigger vision, the bigger picture, and really want to make that a reality. So mission alignment is incredibly important for us, particularly as a mission-driven company. I think that kind of makes sense.

(25:03):
And then a few other things. One definitely is this orientation around proactivity and being really, really high-agency—people that aren't just bringing problems, but also bringing potential solutions to those problems. They're finding ways around problems or going through them—people that just make things happen.

That is very important for us, particularly since we are very early stage. We don't have a crazy amount of resources, so you have to be creative and resilient to overcome challenges.

People that have that kind of predilection, if you like, are very important to us.

And then also, I think another one is around being highly accountable. I find that people, at least in my life, who aren't accountable don't learn as much. Because I think to be accountable, you have to be self-reflective as well. You have to think, "What did I do wrong? What could I have done differently in this situation?"

And to have that level of understanding of self means that your level of growth, in my mind, and development is much faster than someone who is always kind of abdicating responsibility or being...

Nic Cary (26:02):
I'm always right, and everything else is wrong.

Gary Izunwa (26:05):
Yeah. Or, you know, "This happened because of that person," or exactly like—people that can actually, even when things are going right, still ask themselves, "What could I have done differently, and what could I have done better?" I think people that are oriented around that are people that have a really big kind of growth mindset.

And again, I'll tell people that we will, we want to.

Nic Cary (26:22):
How do you screen for that? Do you have a... Do you have an interview question, or do you have a... How do you, you know, how do you, if you've never worked with someone, assess their level of accountability?

Gary Izunwa (28:22):
Yeah. So, again, still on this journey of figuring that out.

But I think some of the things that we've done that have worked in the hires that we have made is just kind of, first of all, when I ask a question around accountability or high agency, I never... I mean, one thing people oftentimes do—and I've seen mistakes in recruiting—is they almost, like, preface the question with what they're looking for.

So, for example, "We're a team that really likes accountable people, right? You know, we want everyone to be accountable on the team." And then they ask the question, which would infer accountability. I think that's the biggest mistake, because you already told the person what you're looking for, so they're going to orient their answer around that.

So I think—never do that. That's the first kind of interviewing tip. Just ask the question that you are asking to infer the attributes that you're looking to identify.

(27:16):
And then I think it's little things like, well, not all the things, but things around, like, mistakes they've made or, you know, a project that they've worked on that failed completely. Why did it fail? And you're looking—just asking things like that—and you're asking, are they advocating against blaming other people?

Are they being accountable and aware of their part in that failure of the project or something? You know, things like that where people, again, being vulnerable, can own their part in why something failed or didn't grow as well as it could.

But also, are they thinking about what they can do in the future to mitigate that mistake or avoid making it again?

So, those are some of the things that we've done. I'm sure there are definitely other ways, and I would love to hear them if anyone has any ideas on that.

But those are some of the things that we've kind of used right now.

Nic Cary (27:57):
Yeah, I think everybody that's been a business owner and hired people will have had some great successes and some things they're trying to learn from. And high-accountability team members are definitely green flags. They're the kind of people you want to have around you. They own mistakes, they explain how something went wrong, they'll say it'll never happen again, and they get on with it.

And those are the people that basically have a learning mentality that you need, because you, as a small business owner, will eventually certainly make mistakes in having a process.

In the scientific community, after things go wrong in the operating room, they always conduct something called a postmortem. They need to understand what didn't work. And businesses that do that also benefit because you investigate the issue, figure out what went wrong, and incorporate what you learned to avoid that mistake happening in the future.

So it's a huge skill in business to develop that.

Gary Izunwa (28:53):
Totally. Yeah, we're big fans of that. And I think, again, the people that are really highly accountable also just learn the quickest. And they, yeah, their pace of learning is the quickest, right? Because they're always kind of thinking, "How can I learn better? How can I improve? How can I avoid that mistake?"

So we find that those are the ones that are most impactful because they're just... I don't know, they're just better.

Nic Cary (29:14):
So, taking the steps to become an entrepreneur can be really scary. I mean, what you did was really bold—to take an 80% salary cut, go basically serve the public, and then, in your next act, start your own thing.

So now that you've taken that leap, what tips can you give early-stage young entrepreneurs that are on their own journeys out there? What are some things that you are integrating to manage your stress?

And, yeah, what advice would you give to early-stage entrepreneurs that are thinking about taking that same leap of faith?

Gary Izunwa (28:53):
So, the question is, what advice do you have for people who want to start early?

Nic Cary (29:54):
What advice can you give to early-stage entrepreneurs so that they can navigate building businesses?

Gary Izunwa (30:00):
Okay, big, big question. So, two things. I think one is around the funding side, and the other is around managing stress and mental health. So if you allow me to indulge you...

Yeah, so I think one is very specific, and it's based on my experience. Take it with a pinch of salt, but I’d say for aspiring founders who haven't started yet, but know they want to one day—I think it worked for me (it wasn't planned), but I would definitely advocate going to, and some people may vehemently disagree with me, but I would definitely advocate going to work in a big tech company.

And this is very much for people that come from less privileged backgrounds—maybe for everyone, but specifically people from less privileged backgrounds. I definitely advocate working at a big tech company, and even more specifically, working in tech sales. And I'll explain to you why.

So, again, I worked as an account executive in tech sales at LinkedIn. And it’s one of those roles where you get what you put in, to the point where it's not uncommon to work a nine-to-five or nine-to-six—or an eight-to-five, eight-to-six—and earn six figures or more in this role.

(31:06):
What makes tech sales so good—and why I really advocate for people, particularly from low-socioeconomic backgrounds—is that it's a very democratic role. You don't have to have gone to university to work in tech sales, and you don't need a crazy amount of work experience to start an entry-level role, like a business or sales representative.

The average starting salary in the UK, anyway, is around £30,000 to £36,000, with a career trajectory toward the kind of income I mentioned earlier. So, with that level of income, you could easily start putting money aside, which you could later use to invest in starting your own company.

I just don't think there's any role as democratic as tech sales, but it also encourages upward mobility more than most fields. And it's a shame because not many people know about it—they hear "sales" and think of used car salesmen and so forth.

Tech sales is a lot more sophisticated and elegant. You're often selling really complex software that helps companies solve their most pressing challenges or achieve their most ambitious goals. So, I really advocate people to get into that.

(32:06):
But even more broadly, getting into tech is key. And the reason I say tech is key is that big tech companies often offer restricted stock units, or RSUs, which is basically free stock you get based on how long you stay with the company.

In my case, I joined LinkedIn just after they were acquired by Microsoft. So, the RSUs I was given were Microsoft stock. And if you look at Microsoft stock, it just keeps going up and up. By the time I left LinkedIn, I had around £30,000 to £40,000 in Microsoft stock, which was free money.

So, if you think about the amount of money you can potentially make and save by working in a lucrative role like tech sales, combined with RSUs—not every company will perform like Microsoft, but if you're lucky enough to get into one—you could leave in your early or mid-twenties with a lot of money saved up.

You could then use that money to build your MVP, get initial traction, and raise further funding.

(32:59):
That’s very much my story. While it was scary to leave LinkedIn and go to the British Council and take that pay cut, it was softened by the fact that I had all this money saved up.

I knew I wasn't going to be destitute on the streets—I could always have a roof over my head. I’d live a very modest life, but I'd have my basic needs covered. If you think about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, that level of comfort really allowed me to take the leap into entrepreneurship.

For people who don’t come from wealth or don’t have the Bank of Mom and Dad, it’s a very specific and anecdotal experience based on mine, but I do think there’s a lot of value in it, and it can really help people make that first leap.

Nic Cary (33:37):
I'll get to the stress question in just a second because it's an important one. But you and I both share that in common—I was a teacher and then went into tech sales.

Gary Izunwa (33:47):
No way.

Nic Cary (33:48):
A software company. And so, I also very much resonate with that story, even though it's partially mine. And I think that, therefore, I'm highly biased.

There are a couple of lessons in there which I think are really important to highlight, which is—you’re really doing a lot of learning on someone else's dollar. And like you said, it's democratic, and sales is also very meritocratic. You get good at it, you get paid more, because you are doing the thing that is most valuable for the company.

And if you're going to be an entrepreneur, almost every successful entrepreneur will admit you're going to have to be pretty good at selling—whether it's your product, the vision, the company, the mission, or the business model to investors. You're going to have to sell either across all those things or really well in one of them for your business to be successful.

And so, what's neat about your story is that you sort of practiced getting extra good at sales before working on the thing that you would ultimately own the most of.

(34:51):
And you don't have to wake up at seven years old knowing you're going to be an entrepreneur, even if sometimes that's what happens. But you can get to that point after you've had those learning experiences that give you the knowledge set and the tools to relentlessly pursue the change in the world that you want to see.

And so, with that in mind, what's maybe the last bit of advice you might give to early-stage entrepreneurs?

Gary Izunwa (35:13):
Yeah, it's not easy.

Nic Cary (35:16):
You talk about wanting, you talked earlier about how you got to kind of like problem solving in a maybe sadistic way, but at the end of the day, you also got to take care of yourself.

So what's the, what's your. And most entrepreneurs are always working on this. It's not, they don't have it figured out.

Gary Izunwa (35:29):
Totally don’t. I’m definitely still on this journey.

But I think one of the things that's helped is—me growing up, again, I’m British, I’m from London, but I’m Nigerian ethnically. My mom is from Nigeria; she moved here. And so, I had very strict parents.

And so, growing up, failure was not tolerated. You had to get good grades. You had to always—like, first time—always pass, right? And so that was very much part of my being, my identity, and my mindset.

And then, so I really struggled coming into entrepreneurship, where actually, you get better through failure, right? Failure is how you learn. And it’s about your pace of learning or your pace of learning or failing, and then extracting the learnings—and how quickly you can do that and execute on the learning—is really how you can separate the winners from the losers.

(36:14):
And so, there was a big mindset shift I had to go through—from avoiding failure to actually realizing that failing isn't the process going wrong. Failing is a part of the process. You have to fail to learn, to then figure out how to do whatever you're trying to do to solve that problem that has been pressing for so long. And you can't avoid it, which, for a while, I did, because that was all my life until I became an entrepreneur.

And when I learned that, when I really realized that failure isn't things going wrong... You are going to pitch investors, and a lot of them are going to say no. You're going to experiment and try, you know, with product design or marketing and acquisition hacks, and a lot of them—most of them—will fail.

That is... that’s just the way it is. No founder who’s ever started a company and was successful did it in the absence of failure, right? That’s what the process is supposed to be like. And so, realizing that and switching my mindset—failure isn't things going wrong—actually, it's just the way the process is.

It made me feel a lot more comfortable with failure, with taking risks, and with not having everything figured out straight away. And, you know, one of our investors is one of the earliest—he was, like, the number two employee at Deliveroo and took them from, like, nothing to billions in GMV.

(37:21):
And the one thing he said to us, which really helps, is that if you're building something really category-defining, there is no playbook. It's not been done before. So you have to figure it out. And that takes time and a lot of failures.

And when I started to realize this stuff, it took so much stress off of me, because I was putting so much pressure on myself to have things figured out straight away—first time, or second time, etc. And that's just not the way it is.

And so, while it's still very... As much as it’s stressful being a founder, those lessons there—like, if you are building something truly different and game-changing that’s never been done before—there is no playbook. It will take time and failures.

And actually, failing is not you failing—it doesn't mean you're not worthy or not good. It's just how the process is. That really helped relieve a lot of stress in me and has kind of made the process or journey of being an entrepreneur a lot more enjoyable.

Nic Cary (38:07):
I think it's so important for people to hear that, especially early-stage entrepreneurs or people at the earliest stage of searching for their first job, hopefully on Tangent, that you're going to experience setbacks, and there will be some failures.

But it is part of the process, and it's not just you personally—you need to get through it and embrace it as a learning opportunity. There are going to be many obstacles, but as a famous Stoic once said, "The obstacle is the way."

So, Gary, thank you so much for coming and teaching us a little bit more about your personal experience, everything that you've accomplished so far, and as CEO of Tangent, which is an employee referral platform that makes referrals accessible to everyone—not just the privileged few from the best networks.

You can go search for an opportunity there to join a tech company. And, yeah, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time today.

(38:55):
In closing, at skysthelimit.org, we focus on connecting underrepresented entrepreneurs with volunteer business professionals for free, one-on-one mentoring. We also provide business guides to all our members and monthly funding opportunities.

You can sign up for free today. And if you like what you heard, please subscribe and share this podcast. We really appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

Gary Izunwa (39:15):
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

OUTRO (39:20):

Thanks for listening to The First Buck Podcast. Don't forget to join the community of underrepresented entrepreneurs and their supporters by signing up at skysthelimit.org. Click subscribe and we'll see you next time.